Radiator Cap

Hayseed

Thanks for that, I used that chart but got onto the month records not the year. I stand corrected on Oberon All time -9 degrees.

Lots of people have anecdotal evidence for everything from Fuel Mileage to the number of rabbits in the average field. Billions of dollars and thousands of people with years of specialised education and experience in their field are engaged in producing weather statistics and predictions. Without these no business or government can operate, plan or budget.

Trends and predictions can be disputed but raw facts of highest, coldest, fastest, heaviest etc are difficult to dispute until another observed example surpasses them. Saying BOM records are no good because Joe Bloggs with his Bunnings verandah thermometer saw something different (or more likely shivered and said "BS it is a lot colder than that") is no evidence at all.

If you look at some of the BOM information they freely admit they can not put a thermometer and rain gauge every square metre in Australia. There will be comparatively tiny pockets higher and lower than the recording stations which are linked to try to give a picture of the area to allow everybody to operate with some certainty. They do have thousands of calibrated recorders out there, some quite simple for amateur observers in the Post Office, on a property or Council yard and some very complex for professionals. The old Postmistress reading then calling in 4 times a day is getting to be a thing of the past. Most of the dispersed stations now are automatic and report in real time second by second electronically to BOM avoiding any misreading by volunteers.

For instance Charlotte Pass, the coldest place in the country will be beaten by the top of the hill above the weather station purely by the knowledge that air cools at a known rate with height. I would guess frost predictions on the Darling Downs or around Dubbo would have a pretty fair success record. In New England where every valley has different localised wind directions and surrounding hill heights and configurations they are on a hiding to nothing. Just like rain falling on one property as per prediction and the place next door missing out is justification to call BOM crap. A cloud has got to have an edge somewhere just like a frost area.

As someone who spent many years relying on BOM daily for information that may result in life or death situations I think they do a bloody good job on probably the most complex, unpredictable and changing system on the entire earth. All it takes is one larger than usual sun flare and all bets are off.

Remember the days before aircraft had automatic landing systems? I bet a number of you had no idea that the 727 or DC-9 that you were pissed off about being diverted from Melbourne back to Canberra or Hobart because the weather had unpredictably closed, landed with 10 minutes of fuel left and the pilots shi...g themselves. They always gave us percentages - they still do, but a lot better, but people are so thick anything other than 100% is considered a failure.

Rant over.

Lang

Lang wrote: Louis where do you live? Here are the state all time records. I am sure it is cold but the BOM all time cold record for Oberon is -0.5 degrees. You are probably higher than the town and temperature drops 3 degrees every 300m in height.

−23.0 °C (−9.4 °F) New South Wales Charlotte Pass 29 June 1994 The coldest place in Australia. This is a freak recording (as are all the records below) with the Charlotte Pass average annual lowest -6 Degrees
−13.0 °C (8.6 °F) Tasmania Butlers Gorge 30 June 1983
−11.7 °C (10.9 °F) Victoria Falls Creek 3 July 1970
−10.6 °C (12.9 °F) Queensland The Hermitage 12 July 1965
−8.2 °C (17.2 °F) South Australia Yongala 20 July 1976
−7.5 °C (18.5 °F) Northern Territory Alice Springs 17 July 1976
−7.2 °C (19.0 °F) Western Australia Eyre Bird Observatory 17 August 2008

Lang I piss myself laughing when I read your first response, and I still don't buy the -9 degrees, -8 was the max for a whole week in 1987 at Oberon, and yes we are a fair bit higher than the town, we can have a foot of snow and Oberon may have a light dusting.

A lot of the global warming comes for piss poor readings in the past compared to very exact readings now, I will feed and cloth and put you up for the whole winter if your game to park all you cars and trucks on my river flat all winter without antifreeze.

I have live on this Creek for 63 years I know how cold it can get.

Louis

I don't want to start an aggressive argument (shades of electric power!) and I am sure you have seen things different to the reported records. As I said BOM can not cover every inch.

Snow can happen from +2 degrees and is not an indicator of extreme cold. We know temperature drops with height so if the air has the right moisture saturation snow forms at height in sub-zero temperature and as it falls the surrounding air is getting warmer but before it melts it hits the ground while you are still laying in your budgie smugglers with a Pina Colada. It will then either melt quickly, as it does in most places in Australia, or fall in sufficient quantities to cool the lower levels to zero and hang around for a while.

I still can't get my head around -14 anywhere under freak events in the peaks of the Vic/NSW high country. Discounting the Arctic regions, that is heading towards Siberia stuff.

Lang

Not to serious Lang, once the water goes hard a few extra degrees less dosn't make any diffrence if you are out of the wind, up around Guyra and Armidale get lower than we do more often, have spent a few cold nights on top of Black Mountain waiting for the road to open next morning. One of the coldest nights I ever spent in a truck was in Adelaide waiting for a shearer plough to be finished, a south fog rolled in and there was icicle's 4'' long hanging of the mirrors next morning

Yes, I remember one night driving near Guyra with icicles forming like fingers on the truck mirrors. The old Commer had one of those NASCO circular aftermarket under dash heaters that warmed a section of your left foot about the size of a 20 cent piece. Absolutely certain it must have been -50 degrees (at least my ungloved fingers thought so).

Sorry, this is a bit off topic-
Lang thats interesting that you say water is best for cooling? I watched a company training video (at leats thats what I think it was) and it was explaining the benefits of coolant versus water- It was the 'wetting agent" that really interested me. Basically they were saying that if you imagine the way water beads off things, EG a windcreeen, they were saying that your cylinder liners are effectively the same. So you have all these tiny 'dry spots' on your liners, which create tiny steam bubbles that "explode' against your liners. And this is the cause of that pitting which we all thought was electrolysis. Quite often the same on a boat propellor.
When you use the coolant, it makes your water 'wetter" so the liner avoids those hot spots.
Your thoughts?
And I never knew that copper was better for cooling than alloy, there you go..
Back on topic, I did have an old falcon that popped a welch plug after being left in the snow for a couple of days at Falls Creek. Not much fun to find that when you return to your car after a hard week of partying and carousing at the snow!
Cheers
Rich
So I've judiciously kept my Mack and other filled with coolant!

Prodrive

I will find some stuff on water vs anti-freeze/inhibitor. I think you are right about wetting agents but this does not apply to glycol, radiator stop leak or even filthy radiator water. Anything added may or may not increase the boiling temperature but it is counteracted in the lesser ability of that "contaminated" water to transfer that extra heat. Everything is a compromise.

They sell waterless liquid for vintage cars with syphon cooling and no water pump. This works great on Model T's struggling up hill and boiling all the way. As you say, although an engine can operate well far above 100 degrees it is the steam pockets leaving much of the engine uncooled that cooks them. The waterless liquid does not boil and hence always covers the water galleries allowing the engine to go to maybe 120 degrees, well within the capacity of the metal, without any damaging superheated steam pockets.

Will get back with info.

Maybe Terry could split this thread?

Lang

Lang wrote: I still can't get my head around -14

Lang

I don't doubt it at All lang..
I'm Fairly certain I've chained the odd Load of Timber Down at Oberon When the Wind chill factor would be a damn sight colder than That..

Prodrive, I think those Little bubbles cause "cavitation" you'll see the vertical line of cavities on a Cummins Liner in line with the Water passages. Cummins Workshop manuals tell you, If you're going to reinstall the Liners to Clock them 90 degrees so there's fresh spot to get cavitated..

Hayseed

The wind chill factor is certainly something to consider but it is all about the cooling effect of air on the human body and evaporation of sweat as little as it may be at that temperature and the ability of the blood to keep warmth going to the skin while it is being "air cooled".

A thirty knot wind at 2 degrees will kill you pretty smartly if you sat in your jocks outside but the car sitting beside will not know if it is still or windy and even if it is blowing through the radiator it will not drop the water to below the still air temperature.

It is a totally variable effect related to the wind and body protection and little to do with actual temperature. It is not taken into account when recording weather temperature. 90% of the time in Australia we love wind chill factor as we stand under a fan or sit hunched over the aircon blast in our cars.

Lang

This is from Winterthur the big Swiss/German heavy diesel design engineers.

3.3 Antifreeze

CAUTION
Damage Hazard: Antifreeze decreases the heat transfer rate of the cooling water. This
can cause damage to the engine. If the concentration of the antifreeze is more than 20%,
you can operate the engine only at decreased load.

During usual operation, it is not necessary to use antifreeze. WinGD recommends to use
antifreeze only if the engine is stopped for a long period in conditions of cold / frost (ambient
temperature below the freezing point of water).

Always use the correct water / antifreeze ratio related to the ambient temperature. The
instructions of the manufacturer must be obeyed for the correct quantity of antifreeze. It is
possible to use each of the two types of high quality antifreeze that follow:
• Monopropylene glycol (MPG)
• Monoethylene glycol (MEG).

It is recommended that you use MPG, because it is better for the environment.

I don't know but to me it says 90% of Australians should never use anti-freeze and limit their additives to anticorrosion mix only. If you are running consistently up near the red line in hot weather you may be pleasantly surprised if you dump your anti-freeze brew and replace it with pure water? This applies particularly to the cold country people who have very heavy mixes of winter Glycol then carry it through to summer.