Deciphering ID tags.

Bit of an update on the original queries re ID plates on Rootes GP Karriers.
Just spent a cupla hours going over the recently arrived workshop manual, came across a few items of interest.
NO mention whoatsover of where or if indeed, the actual chassis numbers were hidden or even stamped.
On the plate that was rivetted to the passenger side engine cowling, and there were two different plates, one. BLSP number, British Light Steel Pressings, eventually taken over by Rootes and then Chrysler.

If I have this worked out correctly, the manual gives the following:-
F....... Cab Forward
A.........Export ( in CKD) form
B.........Perkins 4:203 engine

But then the rest remains a bit of a mystery:-
74A...... IHNFI of
7013 and 8383 are the actual factory build numbers as they were released, eithe domestic or export.

On one of the tags, barely readable, says "11400" which at first I took to be GCW in pounds.
Reduce that to tonnage gives you 5.09 ton. Again going by the book, the two different wheelbases, one at 98 inch, other at 122 inch, tipper and tray bodies shown.
Yet they are described in the manual as 2/3 ton vehicles.
So, given that the above GCW is 5.09 T, maybe the tipping body would go a bit over two ton empty, pretty solid old unit.
Any clues??
Thanks, Guys
Dave_64

Dave

Pretty sure the British designation of vehicle weights refer to the load. So a vehicle referred to as a 2 tonner might have a maximum allowable gross weight stamp of 5 tons which means the empty vehicle weighs 3 ton. Bodies of whatever design cut into the available carrying weight.

I know the military vehicles all operated on this system ie a standard 3 ton Chevrolet or Ford of the era actually weighed about 6 tons fully loaded.

I have a number of Commer manuals. Can you put up exactly how the stamps appear on the plates so I can see if any of my stuff has an answer.

lang

See if this comes out, Lang. May not be readable, as I said only tags I could find on either cab where attached to the engine surround on the passenger side about knee high.
Dave

Dave

Same plates as one of my manuals can you give me the stamps on the bottom one as I can not read it.

lang

Lang,
Extremely hard to read the second one, but here goes:-
"Chassis / Serial Number".
74A 7013. F398

"GV(?). LBS. KGS "
11400
Both the GV(?) and the KGS are blank.
The 11400 is in the "LBS" panel.

The "98" in the "F398", going by the manual is related to the wheelbase, according to the book for the shorter tipper body/chassis.
As described earlier, if it ended in "22" it would designate the longer wheelbase tray chassis of 122 inch.
If I have it right, the "7013" is the actual build/ chassis number, The "F" designates ' cab forward', possibly the '3' may relate to the tonnage designation.
I'm at a loss as to what the "74A" means, but almost certain that it DOES NOT relate to the year 1974 !
Reason I say this is because both the trucks I have here have a few give-aways that point to being assembled berween 1960 and 1963, numbers/ letters etched into the glass ( not always 100% accurate, could be retrofit glass), generator and wiring changed to alternator system going by drivers handbook 1964/5.
One cab has small flip out vents in cab front metalwork, again points to 1963/64.
Placement of indicator lights, cabin marking lights ( built into front steps low down), again could be retrofit but unlikely.
Very slight difference in things like placement of gauges in dash, removal of cable solenoid start, to button on dash.
Have contacted Commer Club in UK as well as Rootes Gp archives over there, can give no further info as apparently a lot of the written material was turfed out when Chrysler took over the Rootes Group.
Not unusual, have been told that similar thing happened here in Oz, but the Hillman/Humber Car Clubs jumped in and salvaged some of it, but unfortunately not for Commer or Karrier.
Dave

Dave

I will pull out what I have on Commers in the next day or so to see what I can find.

Lang

Note that nominal load capacity varies with tyre specification and back then in pommy-land trucks were taxed on tare weight not gross and only the yanks used lbs as they still do, I guess because their tons are lighter than everyone else's. Poms always used tons/quarters/pounds or tons/cwt or just cwt. (C is Roman for 100)

Mammoth.
Get what your saying about Tare Vs Gross weights.
BUT, on both tags, clearly shows the '11400' in the box maked 'LBS' (BTW, both tags read Made in England).
It's just possible that when they were shipped out here in CKD form, that the plates were left unstamped until due to be registered in Oz
That may account for the 11400 numbers as the GROSS weight here in Australia?
Starts to make a bit of sense if that is the case.
Think you may have hit the nail on the head with your reasoning of tyre/rim sizes. First one of mine, SWB with tipper body, had the smaller 6:00X13" wheel/tyre combo, which probably rated it as the "two-tonner" as per the handbook.
Second of mine had the larger 6:50X16" wheel/tyre combo, bt also a SWB with tipper body, which was probably rated as the "three-tonner", again going by the handbook. (NOT the full workshop manual).

Interesting to note that the larger Gamecock, the 5/6 tonner of which I have the manual for also, has many common components, except for the larger 6 cylinder slant Snipe petrol, or the 4/236 or the 6/354 Perkins, a beefed up gearbox, but same front axle, brakes and diff.
(Also listed is a Perkins 6/305 which I took to be an industrial/tractor engine)
It looks like the smaller wheel/tyre versions were mainly consigned to gov or semi gov work, rubbish collection, Parks and Gardens work etc. With a 6.57:1 diff ratio on those tiny wheels, probably only give about 30mph, but it was in the late fifties/early sixties.
Besides, it was all on the clock and wouldn't have been any reason to rush! Could also account for the smaller 13 inch ones NOT having the vacuum booster fitted, whereas the larger 16 inch wheeled, in both SWB and LWB had it fitted standard.
Of course this is all supposition, with relatively little to work off it's more a matter of trying to peice it all together.
There was also an alternative diff ratio of 4.87:1 (from memory) which when coupled to the 6:50X16" wheels gave the published road speed of 77 kph at full noise of 2600RPM with the Humber Snipe petrol engine, guessing would be even slower with any of the three Perkins engines.
Dave_64

I believe all the Commers were CKD kits assembled by LNC Industries.....who also assembled all the Roores Group cars...............LNC also started off VW in Australia,the Germans got jealous ,and cut them out......................I saved a Perkins 4/203 manual from the Commer books ,so theres one motor for you.

Thanks for the info, John.K
Did a little digging on the Perkins 4/305, one I wasnt familiar with, find most references to it related to being a Massey Ferguson tractor engine, realise over a long period of time they used quite a few Perkins engines, as stated know little about them.
Dave