- Posts: 3240
- Thank you received: 1004
Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
7 years 2 months ago #190679
by Dave_64
Having a bit of a look at this Kogsbilt project and I know it may sound like just another dumbass question, but it may just save me a bit of grief if I go to a hydraulic clutch setup rather than the complicated mechanical rod crossover system that I engineered recently.
Means having to modify the exhaust system a bit, but reckon I can work around that and install some sort of heat shield. I've got an original CLUTCH slave cylinder that belongs to the 1970's Ford F350 bellhousing, would simplify things. 7/8" bore.
Biggest problem is getting enough travel at the pedal to operate the clutch throwout lever.
As I already have a dual circuit BRAKE master cylinder to replace the old single circuit BRAKE master cylinder, wouldn't take too much engineering to hook up a clutch M/C inside the chassis rail with about a six inch rod.
Problem with that is the bore in what would become the new clutch master cyl is 1.5", in other words trying to fit 1.5" hydraulic pressure into a 7/8" bore.
I know from past experience that M/C and slave cyl must be matched, don't know if anyone still sleeves them down.
Reason for going this way is that the original M/C was a sealed unit with a little canister that was mounted on the steering column, very simple affair and to check the level you just unscrewed the lid on the canister and had a look, rest hidden under the floor.
Just add that the ORIGINAL mechanical clutch was on the drivers side operated directly by a 1/2" threaded rod one end (for adjustment), yet there was only about an inch and a half of travel on the actual rod. Very basic. Ford throwout lever arm and slave cylinder (on opposite side) is longer and therefore has a different pivot point and needs more travel, slave cylinder has about 3" of travel, almost twice as much.
Just one more minor problem, sort one out, two more appear.
Cheers, Dave
Means having to modify the exhaust system a bit, but reckon I can work around that and install some sort of heat shield. I've got an original CLUTCH slave cylinder that belongs to the 1970's Ford F350 bellhousing, would simplify things. 7/8" bore.
Biggest problem is getting enough travel at the pedal to operate the clutch throwout lever.
As I already have a dual circuit BRAKE master cylinder to replace the old single circuit BRAKE master cylinder, wouldn't take too much engineering to hook up a clutch M/C inside the chassis rail with about a six inch rod.
Problem with that is the bore in what would become the new clutch master cyl is 1.5", in other words trying to fit 1.5" hydraulic pressure into a 7/8" bore.
I know from past experience that M/C and slave cyl must be matched, don't know if anyone still sleeves them down.
Reason for going this way is that the original M/C was a sealed unit with a little canister that was mounted on the steering column, very simple affair and to check the level you just unscrewed the lid on the canister and had a look, rest hidden under the floor.
Just add that the ORIGINAL mechanical clutch was on the drivers side operated directly by a 1/2" threaded rod one end (for adjustment), yet there was only about an inch and a half of travel on the actual rod. Very basic. Ford throwout lever arm and slave cylinder (on opposite side) is longer and therefore has a different pivot point and needs more travel, slave cylinder has about 3" of travel, almost twice as much.
Just one more minor problem, sort one out, two more appear.
Cheers, Dave
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190683
by jon_d
Replied by jon_d on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
Can you move the mounting point of the master cyl ram on the pedal up?
If you work the triangles out, the pedal can travel the same distance and the stroke of the ram can be less.
first of work out the surface area ratio of the two masters, then work out the triangles to get the same.
Having a bigger master than original can be a problem becuase it might pop the seal in the slave, or worse still, over tension the pressure plate springs and then they collapse.
Sleeving would be a nicer solution; why can't you fit a smaller master?
If you work the triangles out, the pedal can travel the same distance and the stroke of the ram can be less.
first of work out the surface area ratio of the two masters, then work out the triangles to get the same.
Having a bigger master than original can be a problem becuase it might pop the seal in the slave, or worse still, over tension the pressure plate springs and then they collapse.
Sleeving would be a nicer solution; why can't you fit a smaller master?
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190684
by hayseed
"Be who you are and say what you feel...
Because those that matter...
don't mind...
And those that mind....
don't matter." -
Replied by hayseed on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
Dave, Why Don't you use a Cable??
"Be who you are and say what you feel...
Because those that matter...
don't mind...
And those that mind....
don't matter." -
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190688
by JOHN.K.
Replied by JOHN.K. on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
or get one of the little PBR type units that trailer shops sell for override brakes......IH used them for years on ACCOs ......about $20 at the trailer axle shop last time I was there.......actually the budget trailer shops are good for all sorts of truck bits at dirt cheap prices.....they re 3/4" bore......I have dozens of boxed PBR units ,but theyre pushing 40 years old.....even in the seventies they were a throwaway unit.....3/4 master works with 3/4 0r 7/8 slave,just changes the stroke and foot pressure......my big Leyand has one of these, the clutch is supposed to be boosted ,but the booster doesnt work.
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190690
by Sarge
Sarge
ACCO Owner, Atkinson dreamer.
Replied by Sarge on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
My mighty ACCO got a trailer shop brake override replacement. Works perfectly.
Sarge

ACCO Owner, Atkinson dreamer.
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190698
by Dave_64
Replied by Dave_64 on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
Thanks for the suggestions, Guys!
Doing a bit of research on a few different forums, it is not so easy as matching master to slave 1:1. going by some forums who have set up hydraulic clutches from scratch.
I gave a bum drum too, the SLAVE cylinder from the original Ford F350 6 cylinder (1968-1972) is a whisker UNDER an inch, 0.995".
I probably got confused with the MASTER cylinder which is supposed to be 7/8".
Because of different pivot points and length of rod travels on both master and slave, it throws the whole lot out the window.
I DON'T like cable clutches and being an obstinate old basket, wanted originally to retain as much of the original Ford F350 throwout assembly as possible, throw out lever and pedestal, slave cylinder and brackets, adjustable rod etc.
There is (for me anyway) a hugely complicated mathematical formula for nutting this out, but it would be like me performing a frontal lobotomy on a turkey, just wouldn't work!
In town this morning talking to the local trailer spares bloke, can get me a 7/8" remote mounted master cylinder which would fit without too much trouble.
I cant extend the pivot point at the pedal because it sits inside a cradle type affair with built in stops. Originally designed to go from this pivot point directly by rod to the clutch throwout lever.
I CAN however , simply by using different length rods possibly alter the amount of travel required in the master cylinder by using some sort of crank, or "triangle" as suggested.
Think it is going to be a bit of trial and error with the master cylinder bore size and length of travel required. Only good thing is once I get away from the pivot point on the bottom of the clutch pedal, have got a bit of room to fit a master cylinder against the chassis and make a rod to suit the length. What I DON'T want to do is blow the ass out of the slave cylinder
Dave
Doing a bit of research on a few different forums, it is not so easy as matching master to slave 1:1. going by some forums who have set up hydraulic clutches from scratch.
I gave a bum drum too, the SLAVE cylinder from the original Ford F350 6 cylinder (1968-1972) is a whisker UNDER an inch, 0.995".
I probably got confused with the MASTER cylinder which is supposed to be 7/8".
Because of different pivot points and length of rod travels on both master and slave, it throws the whole lot out the window.
I DON'T like cable clutches and being an obstinate old basket, wanted originally to retain as much of the original Ford F350 throwout assembly as possible, throw out lever and pedestal, slave cylinder and brackets, adjustable rod etc.
There is (for me anyway) a hugely complicated mathematical formula for nutting this out, but it would be like me performing a frontal lobotomy on a turkey, just wouldn't work!
In town this morning talking to the local trailer spares bloke, can get me a 7/8" remote mounted master cylinder which would fit without too much trouble.
I cant extend the pivot point at the pedal because it sits inside a cradle type affair with built in stops. Originally designed to go from this pivot point directly by rod to the clutch throwout lever.
I CAN however , simply by using different length rods possibly alter the amount of travel required in the master cylinder by using some sort of crank, or "triangle" as suggested.
Think it is going to be a bit of trial and error with the master cylinder bore size and length of travel required. Only good thing is once I get away from the pivot point on the bottom of the clutch pedal, have got a bit of room to fit a master cylinder against the chassis and make a rod to suit the length. What I DON'T want to do is blow the ass out of the slave cylinder
Dave
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190700
by JOHN.K.
Replied by JOHN.K. on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
One secret with hydraulic clutch throws is to dump any pull back springs on the slave....this makes the clutch self adjusting until it runs out of travel or lining.....Ive put plenty of pressure on pedals when things were frozen,and the worst Ive done was to blow off the plastic fluid line that Leyland Aust used.......A bit hard to figure out Leyland....steel line,proper rubber crimped hose to steel line.....then to a plastic tube simply pushed over the bundy tube......Why didnt they use a plastic tube all the way?.....Black nylon brake hose with the strengthener type end fitting is good for clutch......Ive even seen it used for car brake hose....not legal for brakes tho.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dave_64
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190703
by JOHN.K.
Replied by JOHN.K. on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
Albion had a simpler setup....the hydraulic cylinder was hollow and part of the throwout bearing,so it pushed directly between the gearbox and bearing.......until it started to leak,and the gearbox had to be removed to fix the rubber seals.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dave_64
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190712
by Dave_64
Replied by Dave_64 on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
Went out and measured the SLAVE cylinder (0.995", so a fraction under ONE inch), from fully seated to where it engages the circlip, travels 32mm, about an inch and a quarter to round it off.
Going by what a few blokes have suggested here, if I get hold of a master cylinder the same bore size, or use a 7/8" which is easy to get hold of, should be getting pretty close to the mark.
It should be enough travel at the throwout lever to fully engage/disengage the clutch plate as it is all stock Ford setup, although it is a Dodge 445 trans bolted to the std Ford bellhousing.
Whether I can get enough travel at the pivot point under the clutch pedal to match that, I don't know as I ran out of time to measure it today.
Even so, won't be that hard to make up one of those triangle levers to make up any shortage of travel length in the MASTER cylinder. Made up the steel line (1/4") today to cross over the bellhousing and come out the drivers side, so all I should have to do is get the right size M/C and ensure it has enough travel to actuate the slave.
The joys of modification!
Cheers, Dave
Going by what a few blokes have suggested here, if I get hold of a master cylinder the same bore size, or use a 7/8" which is easy to get hold of, should be getting pretty close to the mark.
It should be enough travel at the throwout lever to fully engage/disengage the clutch plate as it is all stock Ford setup, although it is a Dodge 445 trans bolted to the std Ford bellhousing.
Whether I can get enough travel at the pivot point under the clutch pedal to match that, I don't know as I ran out of time to measure it today.
Even so, won't be that hard to make up one of those triangle levers to make up any shortage of travel length in the MASTER cylinder. Made up the steel line (1/4") today to cross over the bellhousing and come out the drivers side, so all I should have to do is get the right size M/C and ensure it has enough travel to actuate the slave.
The joys of modification!
Cheers, Dave
Please Log in to join the conversation.
7 years 2 months ago #190714
by hayseed
"Be who you are and say what you feel...
Because those that matter...
don't mind...
And those that mind....
don't matter." -
Replied by hayseed on topic Using a single action brake master cylinder as a Clutch M/C
No eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationthis might make it a little easier Dave.
"Be who you are and say what you feel...
Because those that matter...
don't mind...
And those that mind....
don't matter." -
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dave_64
Please Log in to join the conversation.
Time to create page: 0.248 seconds