International C and D series transmissions.

Hi All,
Another bit of a general enquiry type question, hope I'm in the right section or sub-forum.

International C and D series that came factory fitted with 345 V8's seem to have used a few combinations of transmission/diffs. If I have this right, some used a 4 speed with a 2 speed diff, some seem to have used a 5 speed with a single speed diff. I have a mate rebuilding a D series, we got onto a bloke who reckons he had an inline 6 with a two speed diff. Generally speaking, would that combination usually run a 5 speed box? And if so, would it have been the 5 speed direct, or overdrive? No doubt there would be plenty of blokes here who would have had a bit to do with them at one stage or another. Inter also seems to have used a variety of transmissions over the years, NP, Fuller, Spicer, I think that the one we are looking for may even be a Clark, to go behind a 345V8.
Would appreciate any input. Should have pointed out , this would apply to the mid range trucks, 20 inch wheels, what would that have made them, say C1500 series type?

Thanks, Dave 64

Dave

This info is not necessarily correct.

But - I dont believe Clark boxes were ever used in the Inter C or D Series.

Nor was Spicer.

And a 345 V8 would not use a Fuller Road Ranger - nor a Fuller 5 speed.

A 4 speed with a 2 speed diff might exist - but would be rare and only in (I think) a 1500 series (5 ton truck).

A 5 speed with a single speed diff would be more likely for a C1500. With 2 speed diffs coming into the C1600 and above.

Someone might have a spec sheet they can put up that should show the model, trans and diff specs avail for each model.

Oldfula

Thanks oldfulla,
That's what I enjoy about these type of forums, the amount of information forthcoming. The particular vehicle in question was a D1510 ? So, no Clark, nor Spicer. The 345 V8 wouldn't have used the Fuller 5 speed? Put aside the Roadranger series of boxes, we were interested in the straight 5 speeds that Inter used, either the 5 speed direct or the 5 speed overdrive. If they weren't a Fuller 5 speed, whose box were they? Perhaps a New Process? Similar to what some of the bigger Dodges utilised? Myself I know little about these mid-range Inters ( the ones running any of the V8's!) other than what I have picked up by word of mouth, and as you know, that can sometimes be a bit misleading.
I had only driven the larger Inters, CO4070's, ACCO's etc. and they were all Roadrangers of different configurations.

Just as an aside, and again I stand correcting, I have often heard the original Army style cabs called "Butter Boxes". To me, a 'Butter Box' was a cab over White 7000 series, pre Road Commander 1 & 11. Perhaps it is simply one of those things relative to your locality, we always called the International Army type cab and even the later model cab overs, "Bird scarers".

I feel confident in saying that some of the larger Inters (R190 and R200) did indeed use Fuller boxes, as did the Army 4X4 which used a synchro straight 5 speed Fuller whereas the 6X6 version used the 5 speed Fuller crash box. And I only say that from having driven them a long time ago and we all know what time can do to memory! So if I have made an error here, we can but put it down to "old Timers Disease"
So, it may be a case of trying to locate a five speed from behind one of the ex-Army vehicles? If so, I am thinking along the lines of different bellhousings, input shaft lengths, throwout arms etc. Maybe a can of worms! Again, thanks for the heads up!

Cheers, Dave64

The nick name of 'cracker box' came about in USA when the bumper to back of cab distance (BBC) became constricted due to regulations introduced in the 50's. This brought about some weird looking cab configurations where the only way was up. So a lot of cabs took on a tall boxy look, not unlike a biscuit box. I think it was GMC that was first given the nick name but it was also applied to other makes, such as White. (Istbc). I have no idea how 'butter box' nick name for the early AACO cab came into use but some one might tell us.
'bird scarer' is the nick name given to the GM 2 stroke motor due to the distinctive noise.

Dave

I did mislead you with the 'Fuller' thing. I should have said Eaton Fuller as in Roadranger type.

Yes - IH did use 5 speed Fuller boxes in some vehicles (a lot actually). And just a correction - the 'big' Fuller 5 speed (as in 6x6 Army) are a constant mesh box - a different animal to a crash box. Both make a similar noise if you miss a change - but otherwise very different inside.

Back to the C/D 1500. I think that would be the smallest in the series to use a V8 - any thing smaller would be the straight 6 motors.

And i think the C/D1500 with a 345 V8 would be std with a 5 speed box - and may be the odd one with a 2 speed diff.

As to which 5 speed - I cant guess - but dont think it will be the the fuller T54 as in the Army 6x6.

Instead I imagine it will be something with syncro in the top 4 and non syncro in 1st.

And - to change it to something else will probably involve tail shaft changes, clutch changes and probably bell hounsing and engine mount changes.

Now to Army 4x4's - I think they were an Eaton box.

But - can we go back to your original question? Are you asking if you can fit a 2 speed diff from a 6 cyl C1500 into your V8 C/D 1500? If so - I cant see why not - except you might need to change tail shafts and all thats assuming both trucks have the same wheelbases. In fitting a 2 speed - I'm saying - that is to swap out the whole rear axle assy - not just the diff centre.

What/which gear box you have doenst really matter (I dont think) - because the V8 is already running with one - so it is only what is behind that that matters. You will need to compare diff ratios between what you have and what is in the 6 cylinder truck. Otherwise you might find you will have a slow truck - or even a faster one.

Best i can offer

Oldfulla

Thanks for the ongoing info, Oldfulla.

Spoke to the bloke who has the D series, and yes, it was a D1510.
Seems like the best course of action would be to keep an eye out for one of the 5 speed OVERDRIVE boxes that were installed behind the 345V8, thereby alleviating the problem of changing the diff. Really only want to cut engine revs down a bit and still maintain reasonable cruise/economy. The straight 5 speed constant mesh ( I do stand corrected, thanks!) out of a 6cylinder ex Army 6X6 would really be no value , even if it would fit the V8 bellhousing, as it would still give 1:1 in top gear. To shorten any tailshaft is no real big deal.
If it were me personally and I couldn't lay my hands on a 5 speed OVERDRIVE box to fit the V8, I would be looking at one of the two or three speed auxillary boxes and simply drop it in behind the standard 4 speed. May be getting a little hard to find here in Oz, but are still around, especially in the states.
Again, many thanks, Dave 64

I agree with oldfulla that a 5 speed behind a 345 is most likely not a T54. I think it is more likely a T35. My knowledge fades out at about the C series, but the smaller models (xx162) in the AL,AR,AS,AA,AB series used a 4 speed gearbox and 2 speed diff, where as the bigger (xx182) model used a 5 speed and 2 speed diff.
xx160 was a single speed diff.

I think a C1620 would be a 6 cylinder, 4 speed gbox / 2 speed diff, and a C1820 would be a V8, 5 speed gbox / 2 speed diff.

To aid in your search for a T34 overdrive gearbox, I believe these were only fitted to diesel powered trucks such as those fitted with a 354 Perkins (in my experience). Because the diesel revved slower, the overdrive kept the road speed up. If the 345V8/overdrive combo came from the factory I think??? it would have had to have been special order. In the C series, these diesel powered trucks were designated CD1820 / CD1840.

We have an oddball CD1820 with a 345V8 petrol, original overdrive gearbox and standard 2 speed diff, the engine was transplanted in at one of its many re-incarnations. It is a very fast truck, good for 80mph if you can steer it! Also quite reasonable on fuel with light loads, we tested it over a 450km trip averaging 3 tonnes and it returned 8mpg.

I have should have noted that the C1620 / C1820 models don't just depict the number of cylinders, ie 6 & 8, but the size/weight carrying capacity of the truck.

I have should have noted that the C1620 / C1820 models don't just depict the number of cylinders, ie 6 & 8, but the size/weight carrying capacity of the truck.

Im most likely barking up the wrong tree but I think your both mistaken I reckon 1600 and 1800 comes all the way from the AA series 1600 is around 16000lbs back end and 1800 is around 18000lbs this was when there were no V8's to be had and things 160 something and 180 something but as I said at the start Im no doubt full of crap seeya
Paul

Dave, I see you are central Vic, old mate Bob is no longer there but Midlands still have some Butterbox ACCO's and C/D lines hidden behind the cars they now wreck. Could be worth a look.

And for a gold plated expert, try sending "screwy" from the members here a PM. He will also have an idea what boxes may be left there and in what sort of nick.

And what Wannabe says seems like the right info to me...
O/D boxes are a bit harder to come by, sometimes they got a whole lot of spare parts wrapped around them..

/me