End of the Macks?

Lang wrote: Jeffo

Just had some more thoughts on your ideas.

It is unfeasible for Australia to produce a special vehicle just for the Army. A simple truck like you suggest would finish up costing 5 times as much as a far more capable sophisticated imported MAN.

The reason we no longer make cars is because we priced ourselves out of the business. There comes a time when union demands for more money, fewer hours and increased benefits becomes impossible to maintain. Add to this the impossible demands for Workplace Health and Safety requirements and hundreds of approvals, certificates, licences, reports etc etc that cost businesses their profits (the only reason they are there). Don't blame GMH or Ford, we shot ourselves in the foot.

We are one of the least productive and most expensive countries in the world, riding on income from stuff being dug out of holes in the ground. We will be OK but our grand kids will suffer when the free ride comes to an end.

It would be great to build our own vehicles but economies of scale and Australian workplace costs, even if subsidised by some sort of "Buy Australian" donation by the Government for military orders, would suck up the whole defence budget overnight.

We have to live within our means and I think importing the MAN's was the best solution from the options available.

Lang

Dunno if your right, I do know when we had less people here we made a lot more here sought of throws the economies of scale out the window
We also had import duties back then that didnt protect but promoted our industries

It would appear to me Australia was a lot more profitable and we had less material stuff but more fun as we had secure jobs

We also had a secure future not one that relied on digging crap out of the ground and sending off around the world for next to nothing

All this came crashing down around us in the 70's when the UK dropped the Commonwealth and joined the EEC, funny enough now they are leaving the EU

Think about this in mid 60's we had less than half the amount of people here Holden worked three shifts a day and made over a 100,000 vehicles a year now look at us
Some will say its because they dont make small cars, really what about the Torana that was made way back when or when Ford made the Laser
I know one thing for sure history doesnt lie unlike the politicians

Paul

Paul

Economies of scale are directly related to the cost of production. We priced ourselves out of the game by killing the golden goose with continuous increase in wages, drop in hours and millions of laws and restrictions on freedom of conducting business. We expected the government to give us more and more - they had to get the money from somewhere so taxes, royalties, duties, permit fees, approval fees, user-pays costs, compulsory super (taxed at a flat rate) etc increased.

Import duties were initially to force us to buy British - a very one sided deal that resulted in the poms getting our stuff at bargain prices while we provided a captive market for their products in return.

After the war the main purpose was to protect our limited gold reserves and make sure we did not buy more than we sold ie live within our means - what a novel idea! A spin-off from that was we had full employment in industries that could not exist in a free market economy. Unfortunately we had very limited exports as other countries penalised Australian products at the same level we did to theirs.

We suddenly discovered we live in the world and if we reduced our import duties other countries would reduce theirs on our products. If we removed duties all together in free trade agreements we could make a mozza selling our products around the world without penalty.

Unfortunately, no penalty but our base price is so high, almost anyone can beat it. That is why even strongly Australian companies now have production facilities anywhere but Australia.

We just got too greedy and needy. Roll on the coal/bauxite/nickel/iron ore trains and the band plays on.

Lang

Australia as a whole is in a free fall with our manufacturing! How can we compete on the world scale! We need a major rethink on our practises! The dig it up and send it OS should be revisited! We all love high wages and the life we have made from them but it is a bit false!

.
.Yep........I am far from being a political expert......but I really think the place is in more trouble
than most people realise (or want to realise) As long as the government dishes out a few free dollars
a lot of people are quite content to amble on........saying this is great...
Some where the welfare mentality has to come to an end...
If our wage structure is a lot higher than our neighbours ..how can we compete.............
And sending our resourses over seas at ridiculus prices while other countries stockpile
theirs for later use doesn't seem all that smart........and the overseas companies that leave great holes in
the ground after tearing up out prime agricultural land ...are they going to worry... not likely....
they will just go bankrupt and say... see you later suckers..........
One of the most annoying things to me is the amount of government wastage ( billions of dollars down
the gurgler without it even being mentioned) just find another tax to rake in a bit more..............
Building for the future........forget it..........as long as we win the next election seems to be all that matters....
Right or wrong I feel I could go on forever..................
.................................Billy..................................

And our taxes are paying those bureaucrats to deny us what we want.

On TV just he other day as in the last week or so I heard the amount of people working now is 51% now that should be a big concern for all
Now we can all crap with a lot of BS and finger pointing but in the end we are doing this to our selves and we are taking our selves down this road

We can blame high wages we can blame unions we can blame the government but at the end of the day our selves are to blame

Our thought process as a nation is wrong this shows in every election and budget the government gets up and sprooks how much they are gunna give us and we are dumb enough to think they are giving us something so we as a country vote for who evers giving us the most

The bubble is gunna burst one day its gunna make the depression look like a nothing we as a country are spending billions more than we earn every year its something like a million dollars further in dept in the time it takes me to type this post

Man o man I think I just about have a rant going here I best get down off my soap box now

Paul

The awd Macks were a good truck in their day, assembled at MTA Richlands to enable an increase in local content. The wreckers had the Holmes on the back. When I was working out of the Mack Service yard at Wacol in 2007 - (wow -10 years ago )_they were doing them all up and ditching the Holmes and putting the Ekebol underlifts on.

The contract with Rheinmetall -MAN makes sense, replacing the aging Mack with something the UN has commonality over all countries with.

Don't think you'll buy a non electronically controlled fuel pump in any new truck apart from those out of China or Russia now. The MANs actually look quite good with their engineering and equipment level and things which would normally be options.

I see your point Mr Lang but really does the Army need a sophisticated truck like the Man?
My thinking was give them a utilitarian vehicle assembled from proven suppliers, nothing new to invent as its all been done a hundred times before.
The sheet metal work however could be local. Any panel damage quickly replaced with a cab like the Flintstone.
Chassis members also easily pressed locally, same for cross member etc. (was done for McGrath and Leader back in the day)
I know it will never happen. I've seen the rail industry sell out to the Chinese, marine to the Turks and to Asia. The product may be initially cheaper but what's the real cost. Workers on the dole and lost skills.
A hero of mine was Laurence Hartnett. He had this same argument thrust upon him at every step when trying to get a locally built car. We ended up with some US car, not an Australian design at all and he went on trying to build what could have been the Mini, yet was shafted at every turn by politicians and his previous US employers.
If you read his life story especially Aus during WW2, you'd be amazed what was done.
Aus. had completely relied on the Brits and of course they were stuffed. Their experts said we couldn't make aluminium, optical glass, armour plate, the list went on and yet every obstacle was overcome.
Contrast that with the more recent saga of the "black box flight recorder" and see how short sighted those decision makers were. A fiasco worse than the cane toad.

The trouble with using old simple technology is just that - it is old and no longer produced in quantity. New factories and production lines would need to be set up to keep supplying a relatively tiny amount of parts for an orphan truck making it off the clock in price.

I find it interesting when people say all the army needs is a utilitarian vehicle. Those same people would be full of admiration for developments by Kenworh/Volvo etc etc in efficiency and ability. All a Kenworth does is cart routine loads around the country to keep the nation moving. If they are late - local anguish but in the big picture it matters not.

If a basic utilitarian military truck fleet get caught in bad country because they do not have the bells and whistles, the battle may be lost, the war lost and the nation lost. The role of the Infantry is to close with and destroy the enemy, day or night in all weather. Unfortunately any battle is highly unlikely to be fought within 2 kilometres of Highway One to allow the utilitarian trucks to supply them. If it is, the Army has thousands of impressed Kenworths/Volvos to draw on to bring the stuff to where the sophisticated vehicles can collect it and deliver it cross country to the front line.

Lang

As far as I can tell the MANs are to "Keep Up With The Jones s". When the aus army are in the middle east,they dont like to be seen as different.There are Australian vehicles in the army,the 4x4 armoured cars,dunno what they call them.I see on telly,the army have been in Afganistan for nearly 20 years,no end in sight.Eventually,the yanks will tire of it and the Taliban will take over.A lot of senior Afgan military are buying property and businesses in Australia,with aid money,they say.