Retarders

Came across an old publicity blurb about 'Telma' electric retarders. Not exactly a new idea, been tried many times over the years. Started me thinking about the advantages/disadvantages of engine brakes in different forms. Exhausters, Williams, SGV as well as a lot of European manufacturers, the ubiquitous Jacobs and a few of it's derivatives, Dynatards, think Cat had one of their own called 'Brakesaver' a few years ago.
Suppose like a lot of ideas, some fell out of favour for some reason or another. The 'Hydratarder" and a couple of other hydraulic type, Allison either had their own, or one built under licence as well.
Could be on the wrong tram here, but had been told biggest problem with electric retarders was both overheating with prolonged use, plus batteries needed to be in absolutely pristine condition. Cat's 'brakesaver' hydraulic retarder got quite a bit of a run in the US apparently, don't know of anyone over here who tried one in road transport, the 'Power Shift' box. Quite a heavy bulky box, maybe the drawback, earthmoving it wouldn't worry you.
Looks like the more things change, the more they stay the same. See where just about every maker these days have gone to either a semi-auto or even fully auto box, be it optional or standard fitment. Over the years quite a few blokes toyed around with them , notably Allison's, but I suppose a lot of the modern ones are like cars, electronically controlled for maximum efficiency, fuel consumption, driver comfort etc. Old hands would probably be thinking that if you couldn't stir the cog box manually, you shouldn't be driving trucks. But, I suppose that also quite a few derided the air shift range change boxes when they first started appearing way back when. Remember an old time Flintstone quad box orchestrator call them 'ladies gearboxes', any driver worth his salt had a minimum of two sticks. My, how times have changed. Probably same attitude was bandied about when power steering first became standardised. The only time any of us may actually enjoy the old "Armstrong" steering is out on rally's or club runs.
Does it really matter if today's vehicles, be they cars OR trucks, give us a few creature comforts? Yeah, I know, there will be some who will say they drove old trucks across the big paddock, or whatever, with both windows down and a brick on the accelerator, but we did it because that's all we had then. Maybe we are all getting a bit 'soft' these days, I personally wouldn't swap my air conditioned, power steered, auto transmissioned daily driver for QUIDS!
My waffle for the day.
Dave_64

Dave......The Jacobs ...IMO....was the greatest thing since sliced bread
that ever happened to the trucking industry....
Yep. the Allison integral unit..(in the bigger boxes anyway) .involved a paddle
wheel in a housing in the front section of the box. A delay of some seconds
occurred while the housing filled & even then they wernt all that spectacular......

As for the Telma, they were a heavy bit of gear, and fitted to the drive line
(as they had to be ) the heavy rotating mass played up something terrible
with the 2 Speed diff change. Seeing, in that era, the 2 speed diff was all the go,
so that was just another reason they wernt super popular.......BUT.........their
brakeing capability was excellent...........
Many moons ago when i worked at BMG prospect quarry...............there was
an old Euclid (EX water board ,,Warragamba Dam) that we took the bottom dump
trailer off, then fitted an Eastern side tipper trailer, for carting rock from the face
shovels to the crusher boot....With bugger all brakes on the old Euc, the chiefs
decided to fit a Clark planetary drive axle to the trailer........we.then mounted a Telma
retarder on the trailer with a tailshaft going from it to the diff.........
The Clark axle also incorporated a Detroit locker diff centre..that stopped
any one wheel lock up in wet conditions.....(.There was always water carts around
to cut down dust problems...........).
The braking was controlled by a handle similar to a trailer brake.........
With a full load of rock it could lock the wheels..........so
in that operation ,it was very successful...........

This was the type of bottom dump trailer removed


This was the side tipping trailer that was fitted...pic is after trials, then it was decided to fit the Telma set up..........

Billy P,
Thanks for clearing that up, great old photo's by the way, something about those old Euclids. Looks a very small body for such a large P/M though, steep inclines or just that the old Euc's were a bit underpowered, probably stick shifts as well??

Just out of interest, were you working on the spanners there? In a previous life, was BMG the old Australian Blue Metal? Also recall another name change in there somewhere or other BMI, blue metal industries but that may have been later.
Prospect quarry and Wallgrove quarry, one and the same, or different locations?
Cheers, Dave_64

Ive had quite a bit to do with telmar retarders in Toro dump truck applications, they are very effective in underground use. Ive also fitted one to a Freightliner tlit tray that was used to cart containers down open pit ramps, that worked well also, the common thing is that they are both automatic applications. Telmar retarders are also used in dynos, exactly the same unit as used in the Toro 40D, but as said previously they are super heavy.

When you say that they are automatic applications, are you referring to an auto transmission application, or do you mean they engage automatically under a certain load?
Remember quite a few buses tried the Telma retarders at different times, only other one I can think of, off the top of my head was an R model Mack with a 5 speed Maxitorque box and a 4 speed Spicer behind it, long chassis job for float work. Set up by IBC over Revesby way (NSW), Ian & Bruce Campbell, were importing bus chassis and engines and putting their own bodies on them.
Dave_64

I had a bit of involvement with Telma's in buses and fire engines in the early 80s. Heard a few stories of how the "reverse torque" they created in drivelines could damage gearboxes and even snap engine crankshafts.

Dave_64 wrote: Set up by IBC over Revesby way (NSW), Ian & Bruce Campbell, were importing bus chassis and engines and putting their own bodies on them.
Dave_64

Interesting. I assumed the IBC bus chassis were locally made. (my dad has one from 1978, with 3208 and Allison)

Jarrod.

We had some in Volvo buses, and like most things it's about how good the nut that hold the wheel is! They are heavy as we had them out when we did clutch changes as they were built on the back of the gearbox. We latter fitted autos with retards so they went to scrap.

Jarrod,
You are quite probably correct in what you say about locally built chassis made by IBC.
I had a ute over there for a while, having a 4/182 Perkins fitted. IBC had a few ,( I think they may have been Fuso), chassis with engines in the yard at the time, about the size or maybe a bit bigger than a Toyota Coaster bus. He was fitting the Telma retarder to the R model for some local float transport mob.
They used to do some fine work over there, very cluey blokes. Have an idea they supplied a few buses for someone or other over in the Adelaide metro area. This would have been in the early 80's or thereabouts.
Cheers, Dave_64

Dave 64 BMG was at Prospect quarry and later was taken over by Boral..ABM was owned by the O'Neil clan (Buntine's etc) and their quarry was at Erskine Park..Wallgrove quarry was owned by Fitzpatricks and used to supply Pioneer mainly.cheers