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Recent Road Trip to the Snowy & Cooma

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2 years 5 days ago #232945 by overnite
Ex Prime minister Malcolm Turnbull’s brainwave.

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2 years 5 days ago #232946 by Mrsmackpaul
All our pollies are full great ideas, just ask them :huh:



Paul

Your better to die trying than live on your knees begging

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2 years 5 days ago - 2 years 5 days ago #232947 by Lang
Recirculating water is very inefficient as it takes more to pump it up than it makes coming back down, Brisbane has the same system at Lake Manchester north of Ipswich. The reason for it is to take advantage of wasted off-peak production (the main hydro turbines are flowing day and night regardless of demand. Thermal stations raise and lower their output to match demand).

By pumping up the hill, particularly during the night, using the capacity not going out to the community means they have a "turbo kick in" at high peak periods next day. Apparently the bottom line is that a smaller total system can keep a bigger average demand going over a peak and trough usage - as all domestic use is.


The raised water is only a boost reserve and not "limitless" like the main dams so could not keep the boosted system going for weeks. It is all part of the total package.

A secondary effect is to recycle the water so the "turbo reserve" is being replenished with water that has already been used once creating power to toss it back up to the top of the hill again. No such thing as perpetual motion and this pumping is totally unviable as a water supply solution but every little bit helps in the big picture.

Lang
Last edit: 2 years 5 days ago by Lang.
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2 years 5 days ago #232949 by V8Ian
Thanks Lang, that is far more succinct and understandable, than what I was trying to frame.

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2 years 5 days ago #232954 by JOHN.K.
Pumped hydro is an effective way of storing solar .....lot better than paying billions for giant batteries to a yankee con artist.

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2 years 5 days ago #232955 by Mrsmackpaul
So Lang if pumped hydro is inefficient storage then what would you class as efficient storage ?

Paul

Your better to die trying than live on your knees begging

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2 years 5 days ago #232958 by IHScout
Batteries are far more efficient and a lot less expensive per kWh of storage.

Dennis
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2 years 5 days ago #232962 by Mrsmackpaul

Batteries are far more efficient and a lot less expensive per kWh of storage.

This is correct, however batteries have a limited life span and all sorts of disposal problems and then theres mining of the precious metals and all the issues associated with the mining

I think even if we were to take into account the extra cost of building pumped hydro over the long run it would of out performed any other form

Pumped hydro has a provem life of well over 50 years, this we know as there are plenty running around the world over that age already and it is expected that the life span apart from minor rebuilds every 30 years or so is virtually for ever

I am open to learning about whats better and more cost efficient

I will wait for Langs answer on what is more efficient and viable as Im intrigued to know what it is


Paul

Your better to die trying than live on your knees begging

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2 years 5 days ago #232963 by cobbadog
Hi Paul, as Lang explained so very well it is an inefficient way to produce power as it cannot be pumped back up hill for less than it cost to produce the electricity it makes. There really isn't any viable way of efficiently recirculating water. All systems have their good and bad points and I guess a combination of all of them and not relying on just one or two of them is going to be the best way to go at the moment.
Then there is that "N" word that many don't want to hear or use, Nuclear. Cheap efficient but what do you do with the waste? There is now another Nuclear generator out there somewhere where they use the spent rods from the main reactors and they can be used to reduce the radiation from them even more but there still is radiation.
Nuclear Fusion is close but not perfected as yet which is possibly the best choice if using the "N" word system.

Cheers Cobba & Cobbarette
Coopernook, The Centre of our Universe
Working on more play time.
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2 years 4 days ago - 2 years 4 days ago #232964 by Lang
I really don't know what you are pushing Paul but for some reason I seem to be the bad guy if I suggest anything other than all's well.

Pumped hydro as stand alone ie water down producing electricity to pump water up to recover the supply is quite plainly totally out the back door for a year 9 physics student. It is completely inefficient with negative results.

Pumped hydro is another way to use and store excess capacity during times it is available. Whether it is excess capacity from the main system during low demand times or a way of storing solar/wind or even thermal (as in Brisbane) for later reconversion via the hydro system. When compared to direct use of either solar/wind or hydro it is dismal but as I said, it is part of the package and makes the best use of available resources when they are not required elsewhere. As they say all hands to the pumps, some hands are gorillas and others are mice but the mice top up that bit the gorillas can't quite get. The final mix will be every animal in the ark pumping according to his strength and whether he is diurnal or nocturnal.

Lang
Last edit: 2 years 4 days ago by Lang.

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