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TOPIC: Hydrogen trucks

Hydrogen trucks 27 Apr 2020 14:32 #209177

  • Roderick Smith
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The electric-car thread is raising a lot of interesting material.
I'll run hydrogen separately.
It was the magic fuel of my senior physics (1960s). Hydrolising water used too much electricity, and transporting in secure tanks had safety issues (think of Hindenburg and lpg tank explosions).
Years on came fuel cells: generate hydrogen as you go.
Now we are back to inefficient use of electricity: that is ok when solar is cheap and there is lots of it. I am not sure of the cost of solar panels, and how many scarce ingredients are used.
I haven't looked at the energy requirements for the coal to hydrogen conversion. With H2O and C or CH4 as inputs, the output has to be more CO2.
Will hydrogen ships to Japan float on the ocean, or in midair?

Roderick


Hydrogen: The cost of capturing 'sunshine' March 7, 2020. 22 comments
Some time next year, the ship, Suiso Frontier, will cast off from the Port of Hastings, bound for Japan.
Onboard, in huge tanks chilled down to -253 degrees, will be a precious cargo. A shipment of sunshine, proponents call it.
The Suiso Frontier will be the first cargo ship to ever carry a shipment of hydrogen fuel.
Suiso Frontier during a ceremony at the Kobe Works yard on Wednesday.Credit:Kawasaki Heavy Industries
The federal government hopes it will be the first of many – the beginnings of a supply chain that will stretch from the brown coal fields of the Latrobe Valley across the sea to Tokyo and Seoul and turn Australia into a hydrogen superpower.
As the world decarbonises, hydrogen may have a big role to play as a way of turning renewable electricity into energy that can be sent abroad.
Australia wants a stake.
But the hydrogen on the Suiso won’t come from the sun – it will come from brown coal. Making it releases greenhouse gases. Most of the hydrogen Australia plans to produce in the near future will come from fossil-fuel sources.
Tesla's Elon Musk - no fan of hydrogenCredit:AP
Hydrogen is being promoted as a clean super fuel. But critics argue we have not actually proven we can make it cleanly or cheaply. Tesla’s Elon Musk calls it “bullshit”.
And there are questions about whether the demand from Seoul and Tokyo is real – or just another hydrogen bubble.
The science, and the promise
The Earth has a lot of hydrogen – oceans of it. With enough electricity, you can split that H2O into oxygen and hydrogen.
Do that using renewable power, and there are no emissions. You have stored clean energy. Add oxygen back in and you get energy and water.
Scientists worked out how to do that a long time ago, and ever since have been dreaming of a hydrogen-fueled economy.
General Motors built the first hydrogen car - the Electrovan - in 1966. By 2003, George Bush was announcing US$1.2 billion in funding to ensure America led the world in developing hydrogen cars.
The Toyota Mirai - one of the hydrogen cars currently on the market, in Japan at least.
That never happened. Technologies to compress the gas to make it economical failed. At the same time, lithium-ion battery technology dramatically improved – allowing Tesla to launch in 2003. You still cannot buy a road-legal hydrogen car in Australia.
“It’s not price competitive at the moment. It’s expensive to do it,” says Dr Jessica Allen, an energy researcher at the University of Newcastle.
Dr Allen did her PhD in hydrogen a decade ago, just before the hydrogen bubble burst the first time.
"When I finished, I was told ‘no one cares about hydrogen – so move on’,” she says.
But now interest in the field is once again expanding. The technology has now matured, experts say, although it still costs too much. The hope now is widespread takeup of hydrogen will rapidly drive down prices – just as they have done for solar panels.
And it’s easy to see why governments and scientists have remained excited.
Toyota's Project Portal hydrogen fuel cell truck is now in trials.Credit:Dewhurst Photography (for Toyota)
Pound for pound, hydrogen is one of the best stores of energy we have. This makes it ideal for large vehicles that need to go long distances, like trucks, or trains, or replacing the crude marine diesel supertankers burn. Compared to batteries, hydrogen fuel cells can be large, powerful and lightweight.
In the future, as the world starts to generate more and more renewable electricity, we will need ways of storing it and moving it around.
“We will probably never be able to produce enough batteries to store that level of energy,” says Associate Professor Zhenguo Huang, lead hydrogen researcher at UTS in Sydney. “Think about the basic elements – we just don’t have that much manganese in the world.”
Australia’s huge landscapes and beating-hot sun mean we’re ideally placed to build huge solar and wind farms needed to generate the electricity for hydrogen. A small, mountainous country like Japan is unlikely to ever be able to build the huge solar plants it would need to become fully powered by renewables.
Australia's Chief Scientist Alan Finkel led the development of our national hydrogen strategy.Credit:Alex Ellinghausen
“The ability to produce hydrogen in Australia at scale is probably unique,” says Dr Patrick Hartley, co-lead author of the CSIRO’s National Hydrogen Roadmap.
Driving much of the hydrogen-hype are plans released by Japan in 2017 and South Korea in 2019 to rapidly ramp up hydrogen use.
Australia wants to supply that hydrogen.
Last year the federal government released Australia’s National Hydrogen Strategy, which sets out our path to becoming a hydrogen superpower. The Morrison government says it has invested $100 million in hydrogen projects so far.
The strategy forecasts global demand of between 20 million and 230 million tonnes of hydrogen by 2050. Get things right, and hydrogen could contribute $11 billion a year to our GDP by then and generate about 7600 new jobs.
But there are questions about whether the big demand forecast from Japan and South Korea actually exists.
Japan’s published hydrogen strategy only calls for 300,000 tonnes of hydrogen by 2030, with a future target of just 5 to 10 million tonnes – a long way short of the forecasts in Australia’s hydrogen strategy.
If we were to capture 20 per cent of the 2030 market, the export value of our hydrogen would be about the same as the amount of cheese we export to the country every year, the Australia Institute claims.
Shipping sunshine – or shipping coal?
And most of that hydrogen won’t come from renewable energy. It will come from coal and gas.
At this stage, Australia simply does not have enough surplus renewable energy to make hydrogen on a large scale, says the CSIRO's Dr Hartley.
“The amount of renewable energy you’re going to need to produce hydrogen at an industrial export scale is very, very large. The fossil fuel pathway (with carbon-capture) is probably nearer-term, so you can probably get there faster.”
Hence a key part of the government’s strategy: a pilot project in the Latrobe Valley to turn coal into hydrogen.
Could Victoria's brown coal spawn a hydrogen export industry?Credit:Justin McManus
Three tonnes of hydrogen will be extracted from 160 tonnes of brown coal in the Latrobe Valley and then shipped to Japan aboard the Suiso Frontier.
If you mix coal with steam and oxygen, you can produce hydrogen – and greenhouse gases. As long as you capture the greenhouse gases, your project is carbon neutral.
But several experts told the Age they were deeply sceptical carbon capture could be made to work economically.
“Carbon capture has been one of the most unsuccessful investments the Australian government has ever made,” says Richie Merzian, director of the climate and energy program at progressive think tank the Australia Institute.
A giant dredging machine at work in the brown coal mine at Loy Yang in the Latrobe Valley. Credit:John Woudstra
“We have spent over $1.3 billion investing in it... with no commercial capture facility for coal, and one for gas – and that one has been riddled with issues.”
The CSIRO's Dr Hartley disagrees. “Carbon-capture technically doable. But as with all these things, the economics are still challenging in some places. The technology is there, it’s being demonstrated in a number of places. It needs to scale up."
Others see the whole hydrogen project as a greenwash for the fossil-fuel industry.
“It’s obvious what's going on," says University of Queensland economist Professor John Quiggin. "The government loves coal."
In the Latrobe Valley, the demonstration project is not planning to capture the carbon it produces, leaving it to float off into the atmosphere.
< www.theage.com.au/national/hydrogen-the-...20200306-p547he.html >

"190706Sa-Melbourne'Age'-energy-hydrogen (two parts)
"190719F-Melbourne'HeraldSun'-energy-hydrogen.
200307Sa-Melbourne'Age'-hydrogen.ship
200307Sa-Melbourne'Age'-hydrogen.truck









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Hydrogen trucks 27 Apr 2020 19:09 #209194

  • Morris
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Yep, don't use polluting brown coal here, just sell it to Japan where it will pollute just the same but it will not be "our fault."
I have my shoulder to the wheel,
my nose to the grindstone,
I've put my best foot forward,
I've put my back into it,
I'm gritting my teeth,

Now I find I can't do any work in this position!

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Hydrogen trucks 27 Apr 2020 22:34 #209217

  • JOHN.K.
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In fact hydrogen was a major component of the gas that was piped to so many houses in the cities before LP and natural gas took over in the 70s.,and all the gasworks were demolished.....The gas was made by blowing steam over white hot coke ,or by steam over slack coal in a slightly different process......the gas contained hydrogen and carbon monoxide ,which was poisonous and "gassing yourself " a popular saying.....The so called "dirty" brown coal is an invention of the greens ,far as I can see......and maybe the natural gas industry ,too.....The only thing dirty about is the moisture content ...dry it out,and its no dirtier than steam coal.

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Hydrogen trucks 27 Apr 2020 23:59 #209228

  • invested energy
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Coal kills miners... and it's the greens fault?

Hydrogen will be a good way to store and ship energy, as long as it doesn't come from coal.

Fact is that even without considering climate, coal is filthy, always has been, and it's the taxpayer, not the mining company, or the electricity industry that picks up the health bill.

Ask anyone at Pt Augusta, since the coal burner was shut down & blown up they're happy there's no longer a layer of filth hanging in the air over town. I've seen it first hand and was glad to be pushing through.

Hopefully the rates of lung cancer there will decline from double the national average.

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-05/port-a...10338812?pfmredir=sm


www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/an-ep...WImZMH4WZGb3ivaDhJtg

theconversation.com/black-lung-disease-o...tions-answered-91637

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-15/queens.../8357772?pfmredir=sm
for when I'm not driving the car of the century...

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Hydrogen trucks 28 Apr 2020 00:59 #209229

  • overnite
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Morris wrote: Yep, don't use polluting brown coal here, just sell it to Japan where it will pollute just the same but it will not be "our fault."


Unfortunately, apparently, according to UN because it originated from Oz, we have the pollution figures added to our carbon emissions. Go figure?

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Hydrogen trucks 28 Apr 2020 01:02 #209230

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invested energy wrote: Coal kills miners... and it's the greens fault?

Hydrogen will be a good way to store and ship energy, as long as it doesn't come from coal.

Fact is that even without considering climate, coal is filthy, always has been, and it's the taxpayer, not the mining company, or the electricity industry that picks up the health bill.

Ask anyone at Pt Augusta, since the coal burner was shut down & blown up they're happy there's no longer a layer of filth hanging in the air over town. I've seen it first hand and was glad to be pushing through.

Hopefully the rates of lung cancer there will decline from double the national average.

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-05/port-a...10338812?pfmredir=sm


www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/an-ep...WImZMH4WZGb3ivaDhJtg

theconversation.com/black-lung-disease-o...tions-answered-91637

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-15/queens.../8357772?pfmredir=sm


From abc news, then it must be true. Not.

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Hydrogen trucks 28 Apr 2020 05:34 #209232

  • lantana jack
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Yeah......... me-thinks methane hydrate will be the next big thing.

Diesel and petrol ‘refined’ from methane hydrate will be cheap as. Likely price hydrogen out.





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Hydrogen trucks 28 Apr 2020 06:44 #209234

  • oliver1950
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Hydrogen will never make it as a power source.Imagine filling up from your garden hose,simple cheap and easy.Exhaust is water,minimal pollution.
Now look at electric vehicles -expensive batteries,expensive electricity,win win for energy companies ,battery manufacturers,lithium miners and shareholders
Any wonder I am a skeptic
You can't have too many toys!

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Hydrogen trucks 28 Apr 2020 07:41 #209235

  • JOHN.K.
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Why do the greenies hate coal and steam so much?....Simple ,coal and steam is something anyone can do ,and greenies hate that because multinationals have no controll over it.....I can make a steam car and power it with wood from my back yard....plenty of hate for that,because there is no central governments controll over it....Every pressure group ,greenies ,socialists ,anarchist,feminists,gays ,have funding from multinational businesses to push an agenda ....and provide profit for their sponsors.Why do you think its impossible to anything for your self anymore.?...

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Hydrogen trucks 28 Apr 2020 22:06 #209290

  • invested energy
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Jebus he of you blokes really are a wind up... next it'll be vaccines cause daylight saving ;)

Key results:

Majority (68%) of respondents think the ABC is more important in an age of social media and fake news, including 64% of LNP and 61% of One Nation voters;
The results show 57% of respondents do not trust social media, while just 12% said they do trust social media;
Over three times more voters trust the ABC (52%) than trust commercial media (14%);
Voters across all parties (LNP, ALP, Greens and One Nation) trust the ABC more than commercial news sources.
www.tai.org.au/content/abc-still-austral...-trusted-news-source

So yeah, when the ABC reports on Queensland Government hearings that show coal miners are being maimed and dying from black lung... Wether you like it or not that is the abject truth.

When the SA government tried to blame smoking for the huge rates of asthma in children & lung cancer in adults at Pt Augusta, the ABC reports that its actually air pollution from burning coal. That is the abject truth.

As for the gays, the greenies, the feminists... well one in every 9 of your fellow Australians vote for the greens, which is double the number garnered by the Nationals.

Why aren't people sneering about the Nats having seats in cabinet and selling out farmers in favour of miners? These are the people who oversaw the deregulation of dairy and the subsequent sell off by Mum's & Dad's to large multinational farmers & processors.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty to be sceptical about... A federal ICAC, publicly funded elections and $1000 maximum donations would be a great f#@ken start...

However I think you'll find that all the links are between the encumbant fossil fuel industries, the bankers, the corporates, the money interests... and misinformation.

Coal miners are spending big on bullish!t. The same way big tobacco bought doctors... to sow doubt and pedal junk when they know full well what's going on and have for 40 years.

If you're a climate sceptic then you're a useful idiot for those who like to fleece you sellng their fossil fuelled energy.

I mean who are you going to believe?

Team a) The entire body of the world's scientific knowledge... publicly funded & accountable organisations like NASA, the CSIRO, NOAA, the Royal Society, even the Pentagon acknowledges climate change is a risk to what they do.

Team b) the IPA, GWPF, Heartland Institute & various other think tanks & atroturfers that -refuse- to say who funds them...

Except when they go bankrupt and the rules mean they have to disclose where the money has been going...

"The company gave $300,000 to Government Accountability & Oversight, a group focused on countering organizations that oppose Trump administration environmental rollbacks."

www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/climate/murra...ate-denial-coal.html

Needless to say they're also going to abandon pension entitlements & mine rehabilitation in the process of "going broke"

www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/...e-us-power-dwindles/

www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/07...WyJvHuMo5xfByJijnzRE

theintercept.com/2019/05/16/coal-industr...suaXumAgVpnBVNIlJth8

How does this all affect hydrogen as a transport or transportable fuel?

The LNP loves coal (donors) just a bit more than Labor does. They're looking to save that source of funding and coal to hydrogen is one way of staving off the inevitable... and juicing the punters, hooked on the existing network, for a few more dollars before everyone realises that all electric houses are cheaper.

reneweconomy.com.au/beware-fossil-gas-su...ydrogen-gifts-73041/
for when I'm not driving the car of the century...
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